EURO+DRIVE PHASE 2 - The Official Thread - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo 4C Forums
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post #21 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 04:07 PM
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Hi Sebastiano:

First of all, I have to say that your posts on this forum are a little suspect. All of your posts on this forum started today, after this thread. You don't own a 4C and it's pretty clear from your comments in another thread that you never will own one (you said it aggravated your back issues). That said, I'm going to take everything you said at face value and address it.

I do have a dilemma though. If you are who you say you are, then you are about the last person I would want to explain some of this stuff too because Bosch intentionally makes it difficult to tune ECUs. I am not going to help them out by explaining our process for getting around that. This is sort of like a safe manufacturer asking a safe cracker how he does his job. So with that in mind, I'll continue.

Let's start with the power and torque numbers. We have been extremely clear that we publish numbers based on testing results using Auterra. That's the most accurate way of generating numbers for this car because it allows plenty of airflow through the radiator and intercooler, plus we don't have any wheel speed sensor issues or disagreements. Best of all our customers can easily purchase the software and see the numbers for themselves. They don't have to take our word for it. We also use Dynojets, and sometimes publish those numbers, but for the reasons I discussed earlier I consider Auterra to be more accurate on this car, especially a tuned one. If you have any doubt about the accuracy of Auterra, I suggest you use google to research it. Any reasonable person would conclude that it's accurate is used correctly. It shows about 230whp/242wtq on a dead stock car and those are the numbers we use for comparison.

Now onto the presentation of our data. Yes it's plotted into another format so that it matches the background of our PDF flyer. That's extremely standard in the industry. In fact, not only is it common in the aftermarket, it's exactly what the big manufacturers do, including Fiat. If you are who you say you are, then you should know that. I'm not sure why you took issue with it.

You ask about fuel injectors, fuel pump, and turbo limitations and describe them as if they are hard limits. They just aren't. A manufacturer's limits are generally much lower than we in the aftermarket use. That's because they have to build to the lowest common denominator. We don't, we tune specifically for our target customers, which tend to be enthusiasts who take good care of their cars, change oil on time, properly gap spark plugs, clean the air filter regularly, etc.

Let's look at the turbo for a moment. We spin the turbo faster than the stock ECU allows (I am assuming that's the limit you are talking about as there is no published compressor map for this turbo). How exactly we do that isn't something I will share with you. When it spins faster it creates more boost (all other things being equal) We also take advantage of that boost in ways the factory just didn't. For more on this please read: VVT Explanation and Tuning . That has a lot to do with power on this engine.

Of course the fuel injectors do have an actual hard limit, well sort of. That limit is 100% duty cycle. We certainly don't run them to the edge there, but we get a lot closer than they were originally. Of course with more fuel pressure, you get more fuel for each percentage. So if we run them to say 92% and don't want to go to 93% there are options. That should be enough info for you to make a darn good guess at what we did there.

The question about the "the 1000 degrees Celsius problem" is interesting to me. It's not a problem for us. I simply don't want to explain how we deal with that because that information could benefit other tuners. No typical customer would ask that, because only someone who has been inside the ECU even knows about it.

Greg

Last edited by greg@eurocompulsion; 05-01-2016 at 04:37 PM.
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post #22 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 04:39 PM
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I am not a tuner. I am not interested in fighting wit you or selling you a product. I have nothing financial or benefit reason. BUT I developed the whole system from a - z. Everything software and hardware is from my team the FPT GYÖR. All has nothing do with the software that you say and what the software allows. This has something to do with the fact that the motor is not able to get inside what the compressor delivers, the fuel is not being spray to cool down enough, and other and other and other limits from the hardware. At the very end - 295-300PS EWG is the bottom line from the exhaust fumes, back pressure and exhaust temperature that the OEM catalisateur can handle. You can not override it. Especially not by software. You can not fraud it. It is hardware. It is not possible. It is like driving 400km/h with a truck and no wheels.

You writing around all the problems. All excuses. You don't proof anything. You don't show a real dyno result. You compare our 175 million facility with dynos, static dynos, development and with a toy from the Internet. I wonder how a factory like MAHA can sell a 350000? dyno if yours is more accurate. They all must be very stupid to invest so much money the could have it much cheaper. Strange. What you do is maketing. It is not reality. We have the 4C with 295PS EWG here in Györ. My test personal is 75-85kg. The tank is full. The car makes 3.7seconds to 100km. How are your times? We have a development facility in Austria. They have larger turbos in test. even electric turbos with 355ps and the car is at around 3.4sec. i be reading this forum a long time. I am well known in the European industry and we also help other tuners as long we don't need to give out secret information. Yes it is a Bosch. But this is my baby! You can never in your life explain me anything about it. And if you keep saying who I am buy a plane ticket and come to Györ. We have open house. I give you my contact information and the permission to enter the facility. Any time you welcome.

Secret secret secret.
Not secret. Let's call it marketing. But who is so stupid do not doubt. Where is the first customer from you that has 0-100 times with your 340PS. OR better 320WHP??

You are not honest mr. Greg. Every person has the right to ask these questions. I reading the board and not one person you sold to has anything accurate. Not one magazine showed neutral results. You have zero neutral numbers. In Europe the companies are tested hard with real dyno, test tracks, compared to other cars. Same driver, same environment. You just make a excel page. Wonderful that it looks nice and is not real.

It is not.
It is not possible.
Not because of the software. Because of minimum 11 parts of the hardware. I would believe your statement if this was 310PS at the flywheel and with 100cpsi and minimum 70mm exhaust with a special design. But as long as you say with the original cat it is not true and you know it.

I believe you that your tuning works. A box tuning works too. You raise the torque and the customer feels this. He is impressed. But this says nothing about the reality. And your reality is not the truth. I am sorry.
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post #23 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 04:47 PM
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Seems like this could be resolved pretty simply if someone were to actually dyno EC stage 2 and post the actual dyno output. Someone needs to step up

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post #24 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 04:59 PM
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That's a lot of knowledge and inflammatory information for a "plant leader...who wishes not to argue or attack...or has no financial interest" or whose tune requires an larger diameter exhaust, higher flow DP and hosing to overcome the "1000 degree celsius problem"....(maybe, I said maybe)


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post #25 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:13 PM
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SabastianoFPT,


Do you agree that the OEM output for the 4C is 229 whp and 242 wqt, or using your 11.4% driveline loss 258 engine hp and 273 engine tq or very close to those numbers?
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post #26 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:14 PM
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I said that it is not possible. I say around 315PS are possible with lot of hardware to be secured. I don't talk about tuning. I talk about hardware that is not able to do what is be offered here. A euro 6 cat is not able to survive the temperature the back
Pressure and the fumes. Has nothing to do with a product. Just with parts that are on this car.

And my knowledge is my job. I work to develop this.
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post #27 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:18 PM
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Sebastiano, for someone who has shown up on the forum for the first time today, you are certainly throwing around a lot of strong language as well as impugning people who have been here a long time and have a track record of satisfying their customers. Why not take a pause and think this over? So far, it seems to me, you haven't made a compelling argument. You merely insist you're right and the others are either lying or stupid. It's not very convincing.

We welcome informed discussion about any aspect of the 4C, but please keep it professional, collegial, and, when there's disagreements, unemotional.

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post #28 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:27 PM
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Welcome back Eduard!!!

May the 4C be with you.

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post #29 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:28 PM
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Dear mr. Foley

I said nothing attacking. I doubt these numbers by technical facts. I came especially to this forum just becose of these numbers. Nothing else. So my intention are answers. Yes. My right. Very neutral.

Now people that have not the same technical back ground doubt me. Good. I am able to answer any question and show internal results by fact and my knowing. He did not answer anything technical besides that they use a simple internet toy for Measure

I have any right to ask in this forum. I am
Not a worse member than anyone other

It is not ok to spread these numbers with technical facts. The Audi TTRS 8J can not make 500PS by software too. But this is what this person wants to make the readers think.
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post #30 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-01-2016, 05:36 PM
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Sebastiano, I think that coming into my thread and saying that I am not honest without proof is a bit over the line. You might disagree with me, or the way I do things or with results, but that doesn't make either one of us dishonest.

I want to address this statement you made: "You don't show a real dyno result. You compare our 175 million facility with dynos, static dynos, development and with a toy from the Internet. I wonder how a factory like MAHA can sell a 350000? dyno if yours is more accurate. They all must be very stupid to invest so much money the could have it much cheaper."

That's just not accurate. All dynos calculate the time it takes to accelerate a certain amount of mass, that's essentially what horsepower is. From a mathematical standpoint, it doesn't matter if you are accelerating a weighted roller, or a car. The only issues are the variables. If all the data is entered correctly Auterra is super accurate. The only variables that come into play are the slope of the road and headwinds/tailwinds. The roller dynos have issues as well, but different issues. They have airflow and in most cases wheel speed sensor/ESC issues.

I DID NOT say that Auterra was better or more accurate than an OEM manufacturer's 350,000 euro dyno. I am saying that if used correctly it's more accurate on this car than a typical 40,000usd shop dyno. That's a big difference. The manufacturers have dyno rooms to simulate climates, realistic airflow (meaning they can get 80mph of air through the intercooler) etc.

Greg
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