EURO+DRIVE PHASE 2 - The Official Thread - Page 11 - Alfa Romeo 4C Forums
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post #101 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 01:27 PM
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The bolded portion above perfectly sums it up
I totally agree.


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Now that this thread is somewhat back on topic, let's get into it.
I will try to stay on topic. I'll ignore the troll for the time being.

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In addition to my dyno questions, above:

How much boost pressure is used in Phase1/Phase 2? Stock is 22 PSI, correct?

How does the turbo/intercooler/associated hardware cope with the added power?

Where do you see the limiting factors in the engine's ability to handle the power (transmission is the obvious one, so beyond that)?

Thanks
Phase 1 has about an extra 2psi, Phase 2 about 3.5 to 4.

The turbo/intercooler, etc. cope with it just fine. No issues there yet.

Limiting factors? Everything! Going beyond this I will probably lean towards more intercooling first, but there are other limitations as well.

Greg
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post #102 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 01:36 PM
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We could, but we think it's a bad idea. Obviously we can't shut that off for customer cars because the ABS, traction and stability control would quit working. If we turned it off for our own car just to do a dyno pull, the results would not be possible for customers to duplicate. So there really isn't any point. It just makes more sense to use Auterra, customers can easily duplicate that, and test all they want.
It isn't that you would do it for customer cars. It is more that it is the standard for comparison; manufacturers use inertia based engine dynos. Measuring horsepower is done on a dyno. It is as if you were buying a diamond and someone was trying to sell you that this isn't GIA certified but it has this new digital certification, you would be skeptical. It isn't the accepted standard.


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Many cars have a "dyno mode". This one doesn't. Also, we can't simply disable the ESC for the run by pulling a fuse because the system is FAIL SAFE, not fail dangerous. Meaning that if it doesn't see the signals it wants, it assumes the worst.



I might, but at this point I think it will just cause more chaos and trade one argument for another. For now I am going to leave well enough alone. It pretty much looks just like the Auterra results in the lower and mid range, but you can see where the ECU pulls power back lowering the peak numbers.

Greg

P.S. If anyone has a technical reason why they don't think Auterra is valid, I would love to hear it. In the meantime, here are three links relating to this type of system for measuring power, all show that when set up correctly it's very accurate. I just don't see why anyone wouldn't use this system:

http://www.auterraweb.com/dashdynohpandtorque.html

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/archi...p/t-33070.html

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...ring-software/

(note, this last one is Nology's system, which has been superseded by Auterra )
Again, it isn't about a fault with the Auterra - though there are several calibrations that could materially impact Auterra amounts. Auterra is done on the road, so not a controlled environment. How does it cope with road grade, for example? It is rare that a road is perfectly flat. Also, even wind will impact results, probably not materially, but somewhat. It just isn't a controlled environment like one you would want to see for any experiment. - All that notwithstanding, though, it is just a comfort level thing since inertia based dyno pulls are the standard, and it would be interesting to see this tested using the standard methodology.

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post #103 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 01:39 PM
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I totally agree.




I will try to stay on topic. I'll ignore the troll for the time being.



Phase 1 has about an extra 2psi, Phase 2 about 3.5 to 4.
That's amazing! So you get 25% more power with a 9% increase in boost pressure on phase 1? I am not a tuner so I have no idea. I thought it would've been much more than that though.

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The turbo/intercooler, etc. cope with it just fine. No issues there yet.

Limiting factors? Everything! Going beyond this I will probably lean towards more intercooling first, but there are other limitations as well.

Greg
Can you elaborate? Admittedly, that wasn't a confidence inspiring response. So, if everything is limiting, the Phase 2 power level is on the cusp of danger for many vehicle components? Not sure if I interpreted that correctly but that's how it read to me.

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post #104 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 01:41 PM
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Greg think my post got lost in the insanity - On amazon there's an Auterra unit that's black and plugs into the obd2 port, is this the one you recommend?
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post #105 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 01:58 PM
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Greg think my post got lost in the insanity - On amazon there's an Auterra unit that's black and plugs into the obd2 port, is this the one you recommend?
It's this:

http://www.amazon.com/Auterra-302-Dyno-Scan-Windows-CAN/dp/B000YTI0RW
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post #106 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 02:00 PM Thread Starter
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Yes that is the one.
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post #107 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 02:40 PM
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Greg think my post got lost in the insanity - On amazon there's an Auterra unit that's black and plugs into the obd2 port, is this the one you recommend?

Kaz, I sent you a message on FB this morning...


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post #108 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 03:08 PM
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OK, I'm now deleting this back and forth. I will continue to do that, so let's stop this please.

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post #109 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 03:14 PM
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That's amazing! So you get 25% more power with a 9% increase in boost pressure on phase 1? I am not a tuner so I have no idea. I thought it would've been much more than that though.
Not quite. You are looking at peak boost, not the boost at the point in the RPM curve where it makes peak power. Also, there are other power adding changes in the tune in addition to the added boost.

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Can you elaborate? Admittedly, that wasn't a confidence inspiring response. So, if everything is limiting, the Phase 2 power level is on the cusp of danger for many vehicle components? Not sure if I interpreted that correctly but that's how it read to me.
Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. Keep in mind, I am dealing with an avalanche of posts here, plus running a business today as well. Every component in every car is limiting in some way. For example you won't find a ring and pinion gear that can handle 1000hp in a 150hp car. You won't find an intercooler that can effectively handle 30psi and 500hp on a 10psi 200hp car. It would be a waste of manufacturer's money, and dead weight. So when I say everything is limiting, that's literally true. The pistons have limits, so does the crank, and so do the rods. There are limitations with regards to the valve timing and the intercooler becomes less and less efficient the more hot air you push through it.

Nothing is on the cusp of failure with Phase 2. The limitaions I was referring to are not things that are about to fail, they are things that are well, limiting, like the intercooler.

Greg
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post #110 of 330 (permalink) Old 05-02-2016, 03:25 PM
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Not quite. You are looking at peak boost, not the boost at the point in the RPM curve where it makes peak power. Also, there are other power adding changes in the tune in addition to the added boost.



Perhaps I should have phrased it differently. Keep in mind, I am dealing with an avalanche of posts here, plus running a business today as well. Every component in every car is limiting in some way. For example you won't find a ring and pinion gear that can handle 1000hp in a 150hp car. You won't find an intercooler that can effectively handle 30psi and 500hp on a 10psi 200hp car. It would be a waste of manufacturer's money, and dead weight. So when I say everything is limiting, that's literally true. The pistons have limits, so does the crank, and so do the rods. There are limitations with regards to the valve timing and the intercooler becomes less and less efficient the more hot air you push through it.

Nothing is on the cusp of failure with Phase 2. The limitaions I was referring to are not things that are about to fail, they are things that are well, limiting, like the intercooler.

Greg
That makes sense. Thank you for the replies, Greg. Fully appreciate the time and thought you have dedicated to this thread and my questions.

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